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Noisy shadow detail - Cinema

Krusty Geeza

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Went to a local abandoned place yesterday, took a mix of video & DNG stills, the video is unusable, the DNG's are fine!

Noisy shadow detail in these Parrot Anafi clips! It's not visible in the DNG still frame photo's, taken with the same ND 32 filter in place, so it's not the filter...
Details on the clip.

Anyone else experienced this?

 

TJBC75

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Yes, I see what you are referring to. I tend to get similar "noisy, dancing pixels" in shadow areas when I shoot in 1080p and to a lesser degree, in 2.7k. Seems to almost disappear when shooting in 4k though. Could be something in how the Anafi software processes the video as I also have a DJI Spark, which only has a 1080p option, and that video seems to be a lot cleaner looking then the Anafi's 1080p.
 
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jmbsmt63

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Try it without the filter?

And as above, I have noticed some weird artifacts that are more apparent in 1080P with the Anafi..
But all of the artifacts at any resolution is one of the side effects of digital image stabilization/processing.
 
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jmbsmt63

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In my opinion/findings, if you "Pixel-Peep" the images/video from the Anafi's camera, you'll always find something ...unless you use DNG for images and then process from those
 
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Kilrah

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Log artificially boosts the shadows, so yes of course they'll be noisy.

Either shoot normal or grade your log aproppriately, bringing the shadows back down somewhat.
 

Krusty Geeza

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Yes, I see what you are referring to. I tend to get similar "noisy, dancing pixels" in shadow areas when I shoot in 1080p and to a lesser degree, in 2.7k. Seems to almost disappear when shooting in 4k though. Could be something in how the Anafi software processes the video as I also have a DJI Spark, which only has a 1080p option, and that video seems to be a lot cleaner looking then the Anafi's 1080p.
This is the first time I have experienced this. I shot using the same setings, but with a ND 16 filter on Saturday night at & after sunset & that footage doesn't have this artifact effect to it.

Try it without the filter?

And as above, I have noticed some weird artifacts that are more apparent in 1080P with the Anafi..
But all of the artifacts at any resolution is one of the side effects of digital image stabilization/processing.

In my opinion/findings, if you "Pixel-Peep" the images/video from the Anafi's camera, you'll always find something ...unless you use DNG for images and then process from those
It's not the filter, I stated that in my original post & why.
I have used these same settings many times in the past & never had this artifact effect become visible before.
I am not pixel-peeping seeking out issues that are not there. I am actually viewing this at less than 1/2 of its size & it is even then clearly visible.

Log artificially boosts the shadows, so yes of course they'll be noisy.

Either shoot normal or grade your log aproppriately, bringing the shadows back down somewhat.
Now this is the first I have heard this, but you could possibly be on to something, I'll have to investigate it tomorrow as it's already a late bed time for me. Mind you I haven't noticed this before with any of the other P-Log footage I have captured, being noisy & artifacting in the shadows.

I thought that Log was the video equivalent of shooting in RAW? Untouched & neutral footage.
 

jmbsmt63

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This is the first time I have experienced this. I shot using the same setings, but with a ND 16 filter on Saturday night at & after sunset & that footage doesn't have this artifact effect to it.


It's not the filter, I stated that in my original post & why.
I have used these same settings many times in the past & never had this artifact effect become visible before.
I am not pixel-peeping seeking out issues that are not there. I am actually viewing this at less than 1/2 of its size & it is even then clearly visible.


Now this is the first I have heard this, but you could possibly be on to something, I'll have to investigate it tomorrow as it's already a late bed time for me. Mind you I haven't noticed this before with any of the other P-Log footage I have captured, being noisy & artifacting in the shadows.

I thought that Log was the video equivalent of shooting in RAW? Untouched & neutral footage.

I did see that you stated that it is not the filter. I am sorry if you misunderstood what I was thinking. I was not saying the filter is "bad"... just changing the light enough to affect the image in this particular case.
Is the filter's "normal darkening" affecting the way the processing is done?
Would the same scene filmed without a filter have the same results?

Don't take my mentioning "Pixel-Peeping" as a bad thing...It is not to say that you are looking for problems just that you are keen to the details
As I have seen in many of your other posts/videos you DO analyze ( Pixel-Peep) your pictures/videos meticulously, as do I. Especially when I first get a new product, just to find it's limits or "peculiarities".

The mention of P-Log causing this artifacting is disconcerting because I, as you do, relate that to as close to a "raw" image for video as it will get...Interesting
 
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jmbsmt63

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Log artificially boosts the shadows, so yes of course they'll be noisy.

Either shoot normal or grade your log aproppriately, bringing the shadows back down somewhat.

Whoa, hold the phone, shooting in Log adds processing?
I thought the opposite.
I know it just does not add any "color" records "flat" but you say it tries to "blend/boost" shadows?
Is that across the board with other "Log- shooting" drones or just the Anafis implementation?
 
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Kilrah

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Log is absolutely not RAW, it's a "workaround to retain dynamic range when you can't have RAW".

It's just a set of curves that is meant to "squeeze" a higher dynamic range than would be possible into a given file format That is very much processing, and lossy one at that.
Squeezing more dynamic range means mapping bright tones to less bright ones (so that even brighter ones can still be packed in), and dark tones to less dark ones (so that even darker ones can be packed in), aka reducing contrast. It does that to amounts that are not linked to what the particular sensor is actually capable of, just some "standard" amount, while this is only really useful up to the actual dynamic range of the sensor. A sensor like on most small drones including the anafi don't really have a significantly higher one so its advantages are limited.
The limit of dynamic range on the shadow side is "where the noise becomes unacceptable", so you've got to grade your log back to what the sensor allows for. You might gain some thing or not.

@Krusty Geeza didn't say at what ISO he was shooting, but my guess is he wasn't at lowest. Shooting log does an equivalent of boosting ISO in shadows, so if your base isn't the lowest things are going to look terrible. And you always want to have as much light as you can.
 

jmbsmt63

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Log artificially boosts the shadows, so yes of course they'll be noisy.

Either shoot normal or grade your log aproppriately, bringing the shadows back down somewhat.

Wow,
Thanks for your reply there...I just did a bit of research on the boosting of shadows in Log and it is, indeed, something to be aware of in certain conditions!

I can now rest easy knowing that I learned something new today :)
 
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jmbsmt63

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Log is absolutely not RAW, it's a "workaround to retain dynamic range when you can't have RAW".

It's just a set of curves that is meant to "squeeze" a higher dynamic range than would be possible into a given file format That is very much processing, and lossy one at that.
Squeezing more dynamic range means mapping bright tones to less bright ones (so that even brighter ones can still be packed in), and dark tones to less dark ones (so that even darker ones can be packed in), aka reducing contrast. It does that to amounts that are not linked to what the particular sensor is actually capable of, just some "standard" amount, while this is only really useful up to the actual dynamic range of the sensor. A sensor like on most small drones including the anafi don't really have a significantly higher one so its advantages are limited.
The limit of dynamic range on the shadow side is "where the noise becomes unacceptable", so you've got to grade your log back to what the sensor allows for. You might gain some thing or not.

@Krusty Geeza didn't say at what ISO he was shooting, but my guess is he wasn't at lowest. Shooting log does an equivalent of boosting ISO in shadows, so if your base isn't the lowest things are going to look terrible. And you always want to have as much light as you can.

THANK YOU..
I very much appreciate your explanation and enlightenment about that...
 
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Krusty Geeza

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I did see that you stated that it is not the filter. I am sorry if you misunderstood what I was thinking. I was not saying the filter is "bad"... just changing the light enough to affect the image in this particular case.
Is the filter's "normal darkening" affecting the way the processing is done?
Would the same scene filmed without a filter have the same results?

Don't take my mentioning "Pixel-Peeping" as a bad thing...It is not to say that you are looking for problems just that you are keen to the details
As I have seen in many of your other posts/videos you DO analyze ( Pixel-Peep) your pictures/videos meticulously, as do I. Especially when I first get a new product, just to find it's limits or "peculiarities".

The mention of P-Log causing this artifacting is disconcerting because I, as you do, relate that to as close to a "raw" image for video as it will get...Interesting

Apologies to you for my misunderstanding your reply. I look at "Pixel Peeping" as one who zooms in to 400% magnification of an image & then stupidly complains about it being pixelated! I will admit to being a pedant on trying to get the best imagery I possibly can with whatever tool I am using. I am not one to spend hours & hours on my editing though! Apart from my 6 minute long exposure photographs, I haven't used Photoshop in ages! I whip everything through Lightroom CC Classic very quickly, preferring to have captured it as close to my end desired output in the camera, rather than forcing a RAW file to become something it isn't. If that makes sense?

I'm going to go back to this place again today, to test out footage in a shoot off of sorts at different settings, to see what works best for a relatively high contrast & shady location. I'll compare the P-Log to Natural, particularly looking for this scenario again, but also check out your hypothesis of the Anafi reacting differently because of the limited light entering the lens. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

I did hear Stewart Carroll from the YouTube channel Drone Film Guide mention that he doesn't shoot in Log format with his DJI gear & I'm starting to understand why now.

Log is absolutely not RAW, it's a "workaround to retain dynamic range when you can't have RAW".

It's just a set of curves that is meant to "squeeze" a higher dynamic range than would be possible into a given file format That is very much processing, and lossy one at that.
Squeezing more dynamic range means mapping bright tones to less bright ones (so that even brighter ones can still be packed in), and dark tones to less dark ones (so that even darker ones can be packed in), aka reducing contrast. It does that to amounts that are not linked to what the particular sensor is actually capable of, just some "standard" amount, while this is only really useful up to the actual dynamic range of the sensor. A sensor like on most small drones including the anafi don't really have a significantly higher one so its advantages are limited.
The limit of dynamic range on the shadow side is "where the noise becomes unacceptable", so you've got to grade your log back to what the sensor allows for. You might gain some thing or not.

@Krusty Geeza didn't say at what ISO he was shooting, but my guess is he wasn't at lowest. Shooting log does an equivalent of boosting ISO in shadows, so if your base isn't the lowest things are going to look terrible. And you always want to have as much light as you can.
@Kilrah I can't thank you enough for your explanation here! It has me thinking very differently about how to use this bird now. I have been using it in full sun conditions in P-Log & that's why I haven't seen this issue before. I now understand it to be perfectly capable in that condition, but not for the light I worked in the other day, which was just prior to sunset, but not quite reaching the golden hour, with much more noticeable shadows & a lot of darker regions being captured.

Interestingly, to me, I did record at just after sunset using the same settings but with a ND 16 in place at the local beach & there wasn't that level of deterioration visible!

I had put the exposure details on the video at the very beginning as when I posted the original part of this thread I was being ushered out the door by my better-half! They are:
Cinema mode 24 fps
ISO 100, 1/50, 0.0EV, ND 32

I try & work with the Anafi as I do my digital cameras, keeping to the native ISO as much as is possible, exploring the limitations of each camera in regards to noise & detail trade-off's, then working from a tripod as needed to facilitate better quality image capture. I always take reference frames of my ColorChecker card, the large one, so I have a reference for colour to work with if accuracy is needed; with the Anafi I am doing this both as video & a DNG still frame.

Once again, my hat is off to you for your time & explanations here @Kilrah you have indeed shown yourself to be the very gem I thought you to be! :)
 
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Landbo

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Went to a local abandoned place yesterday, took a mix of video & DNG stills, the video is unusable, the DNG's are fine!

Noisy shadow detail in these Parrot Anafi clips! It's not visible in the DNG still frame photo's, taken with the same ND 32 filter in place, so it's not the filter...
Details on the clip.

Anyone else experienced this?


You need some colors on your P-LOG recording before you can judge the noise right Alex. I will actually go as far as saying a P-LOG recording without color grading will always show noise.

Regards, Leif.
 
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Krusty Geeza

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You need some colors on your P-LOG recording before you can judge the noise right Alex. I will actually go as far as saying a P-LOG recording without color grading will always show noise.

Regards, Leif.
A little bit of noise in the shadows wouldn't have me concerned too much, Leif. This however is clearly visible deterioration of footage, even on the roof sections that are in the sun & paths & the ground that is also in the sun. It seems like a scratched up piece of plastic has been held in front of the camera or something, but the really weird part for me is that when I then switched to take some DNG's there is none visible!

I was able to do some comparisons this morning between Cinema P-Log & Standard using the ND 32 filter & will share it in a bit when it's finished importing & I've had some lunch.

Thanks for your input, Leif @Landbo
 

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I'm going to go back to this place again today, to test out footage in a shoot off of sorts at different settings, to see what works best for a relatively high contrast & shady location.

I think that’s a great idea.
Please post what your findings are. I’m curious.
 
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Krusty Geeza

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I'm going to go back to this place again today, to test out footage in a shoot off of sorts at different settings, to see what works best for a relatively high contrast & shady location.

I think that’s a great idea.
Please post what your findings are. I’m curious.
I have started this process, but just encountered this artifacting / noise in a video shot in full sun! It's not quite as simple as I had hoped it to be, that it was because of using P-Log in this circumstance. I actually captured the footage in the other video in Natural setting, I'm seriously wondering if the Sony sensor has a native ISO of 200 & using it at ISO 100 is an expanded ISO feature... Or if it is peculiar to using Cinema mode? Or if it is because of using an ND filter somehow? Or if it is due to movement? As mentioned, it doesn't appear in my still frame DNG's that have the same ND filter in place & use the same capture settings!

A lot of investigating ahead of me to sort this out. I'm glad I'm not using it professionally, but then again, video capture is all new to me, I come from a photography background.
 

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