Solaris8x86 views on the Parrot Anafi crash's(5/Nov)

[MustangPhil]

In the video Solaris made, there is a clear voltage difference between the two individual cells.

It looks like ‘a faulty battery’ could be detected when the ‘balance’ between both cells is measured more than 0,01 v (At least at 10% remaining charge).
With the faulty battery, the difference in the video is more than 0,03V at 30%, compared to the new set of cells that only display a difference of 0,006V in the end (10%).

Not sure it could help, because this analysis must be done with the Anafi in flight, but a surveillance of this parameter that should be displayed at the end of flights or as a ‘battery health’ indicator in the summary page...

I hope someone will find LiPo cells compatible with the Anafi soon (I’m ready to dismount my 6 packs to rebuilt reliable ones)...

 

[Fmaxii]

I’m in touch with a battery seller, but without succes to find a compatible battery, for now.
And Grepow does not answer to the messages that me and this battery seller send to them .
Not easy...

 

[Jagerbomb52]

The Parrot's feedback of today is not a concern anymore as the comments and rating of the video is overwhelmingly clear voted by the vistors. The video just resonates with a lot of crashers and they've all agreed the content is inevitable. Paris HQ is just totally no way to make a turn on it or decline anything now.
So relax. It's over.


I'm impressed you guys still not recognised a very basic criteria - That cell is a proprietary to Parrot because the dimensions was ordered by Parrot. My offer is another proprietary due to my business nature is special.

Unless you can have an enterprise-grade finanical capablity to order 1,000 pcs or more. Otherwise you are not getting even one cell from the factory in the rest of your Anaf dronei lifetime. That's why the factory is not responding to you because you are just too far to be their customer.

In the foreseeable circumstance, you will have three possiblity outcomes:
Consider to retire your Anafi now if you cannot aford the new cells. Not a shame indeed because it has its own problem.
Due to the chance which you can obtain the new cells from the retail market is basically zero. So just go get the new Parrot stock battery. But you have to save some money for a while. May be months. If you do not want to abandon your existing gears.
Same as pt2. But cheaper. Go get my discounted cells. This way is more economics and long lasting. Specifications is also higher. Long term focus, because you can even rebuy more cells later at another more discount rate. When you are totally desperated. Take that into account, this could be your cheapest choice ever, in your anafi drone life.
Chance is zero, because no retailer is willing to intake 1000 pcs cell in this virus difficult time. And this dimension is never popular or used by another down tier manufactuers. And Anafi is already 2 years old. They won't take risk to take that number of stock in placed. So you get the idea.

My best guess for some of you here is, I'm afraid that the highest possiblity of the outcome is pt.1. When the day comes to an end. You would still got nothing. It is understandable the economic condition of everyone is different. So I would always respect your choice.

One thing I have found about China, they have no problem stealing tech and making it cheaper. Many other UAV's have knock off China batteries. If demand is there they will make it. Maybe not as good as OEM but they will produce it. Just look at the knock off Anafi. They sold tons of those things. They were crap but they still made them and sold them for a prophet.

 

[Ana789]

solaris8x86 started with faulty batteries, with working batteries runtime for the drone is correct. What we are concerned with here is what the drone does when it clearly has a faulty battery.

And the problem is, that the faulty batteries "intelligence" is neither "informing" the bird, nor the FF6/user about the changed flight time.
If the batteries "intelligence" would do that, then flight time gets knowingly shorter.
But, never the less, if a 25 minutes flight , or an 18-20 minutes flight, is already damaging the batteries, meaning that a flight IN THE SPECS, not at the limits, then there is a wrong advertisement.
just my2c!

But still, the main fault is in the batteries "intelligence"
Which is clearly on Parrots side!

 

[Dirk_ANAFI]

My thoughts when I read over this thread:
1. The title:
Is of course nonsense. Solaris doesn't offer help but wants to sell sth. In addition he doesn't offer solutions for Anafi crashes.
A better title would be "batteries are getting older" or "rechareable batteries are wear parts".
2. Percent indicator for batteries: a percent value will always be an estimation of a cell status. You will never be able to say exactly, what is still possible with a certain percent value.
3. The cell voltage is also no certain indicator for the remaining capacity.
... to be continued ...

 

[Dirk_ANAFI]

4. Flight time:
If a rechargeable battery gets older, then the capacity decreases. This is not a malfunction, but normal. A good way to be warned early would be to measure and document the flight time over months. If you use Anafi constantly in a similar way, the flight time (app shows for example 100 .. 25%) will decrease over time. So you can at least identify a still better or already worse one.
5. Battery faults:
If rechargeable batteries get older, single or both cells can show a malfunction. This can of course happen at any time and of course appear during flighttime. Though the charging seems to function without problems, a cell may be faulty and for example have much less capacity than the second cell.
If you fly this battery, everything seems to be fine first, then the battery's voltage may drop rapidly. There may not be time enough to land the drone safely, even if it starts RTH immediately.
... to be continued ...

 

[Gipsz Jakab]

I would love to see if the day really comes for a 2 year old drone. It is logical. Let's see. ?

Where did your previous posts go?
And what is this suspicious discrepancy?
The current highest firmware of Anafi is 1.7.3
1.7.4 exists only for Anafi USA.
If, on the other hand, this is a handwritten value, what else is not original data?

 

[Jagerbomb52]

Some have voiced their opinion on the title of this post. I have changed it to hopefully something we all can live with. Just remember that every member is entitled to their opinion on this battery problem and solaris8x86, like him or not he has made his clear weather you agree or not so take notice this forum will not stand for any bashing of any member.

 

[Ana789]

4. Flight time:
If a rechargeable battery gets older, then the capacity decreases. This is not a malfunction, but normal. A good way to be warned early would be to measure and document the flight time over months. If you use Anafi constantly in a similar way, the flight time (app shows for example 100 .. 25%) will decrease over time. So you can at least identify a still better or already worse one.

You are right, Dirk, BUT:

Still the FF6, and it sems, the Anafi ('s failsafes) , too, GETS SURPRISED by it.
If I look at my DJI batteries, or better on that what is shown as flighttime in the app and how/when the battery RTH or the critical battery landing is initialized, there IS a clear WARNING for the pilot to see!
Flighttime is decreasing and the Pilot can see that in the app.
In the Parrot "version" of an intelligent battery management, it (percentage of usable power) still stays where it was with a new battery.

Or saying it in easy words:

I know, that 100% on one of my 100+ cycles Spark batteries is just 10 minutes, now.
Because after 10 minutes, the shown battery level is in the 1 digits!
On Anafi, it still shows 20-30% after 15-18min flight, but already the bird has to go for a critical battery landing, not even offering the low battery RTH anymore. Even with the warning "... in 3 minutes" just seconds before!
And, unlucky enough, even the critical battery landing comes to late, sometimes!
(own experience!)
Which is NOT extendable on Anafi: In case the bird starts to critical land, you can't stop that from happening.

On DJI's, there is still battery life BEYOND 0% (several videos online, plus own testing experience), even on old batteries. Which seems to be a bit further away from the deadline of the powersources!

Just saying, this is a Parrot thing. If I were an american lawyer, flying an Anafi, losing it that way, getting a "sorry, no flightlog, no proof" reply, I would try to get as many Anafi pilots to join my case.

I'd say, the testing result in Solaris video, which is for sure repeatable, will be proof enough!
And he is offering a solution, aside that he is trying to sell something:
Make it a 12 minute flight time drone, solved!

 

[jspg]

I have 5 batteries, there are 4 have "power shut down" around 5-10% and only one is at 20% in FF6, my knowledge is something wrong in this battery circuit (bad quality or cell worn out, but it is new), it should inform FF6 with "%" between 5-10 but it showed "20", , besides, when the internal resistance of an used battery is getting higher and higher, according to the Ohm's law, the capacity (Ampere) is going down affecting the voltage to become low, what I think is the shut down '%" which detected from the smart battery circuit should be consistent, , then the crash can be avoided, the only difference for an used battery is the flying time, I don't think the flying time can be always 25 min. with an used battery.

 

[Deleted member 3201]

The test could have been done with broken batteries, is what parrot is implying I think

 

[Dirk_ANAFI]

Some have voiced their opinion on the title of this post. I have changed it to hopefully something we all can live with. Just remember that every member is entitled to their opinion on this battery problem and solaris8x86, like him or not he has made his clear weather you agree or not so take notice this forum will not stand for any bashing of any member.

Agustine, if you mean me:
I didn't intend to bash anyone.
I wanted to kind of sort this thread and tried to extract the -for me- factually important points. I think we should discuss the "older batteries" theme (simplyfied) further, because it is to important to stop here.
Many questions:
- design problem (we can discuss but not solve this!)?
- 2 vs. 3 cell problem (we can discuss but not solve this!)?
- firmware/software/pilot problem?
- is there an "end of life" indicator for Anafi's rechargeable batteries?
- ...

Sorry if anyone felt bashed by making my points.

 

[Deleted member 3201]

Certainly, It's a broken battery. You are not wrong. The way it was broken was caused by the way it was drained in a consective routine behvaour. The battery never have an enough capacity in design from the begining. What make you think a 2 cells drone can fly as long as a 3 cell drone? Not even a DJI can do. It's violating physic. In our known world. Everying is in energry transformation. Including our life. It's just a laughable matter if you think carefully inside the problem itself.

I never care about the message from that reply as the message was posted by a non-technical Corprate Communication Officer who is a small potato. The role of this ranking can only tell you to read their manual. Nothing more. Understanding her saying is just a waste of time. Not solving any problem or can to make any progress of solving the root problem.

The Mini and Mini 2 both have 2 cell batteries and have a flight autonomy of around 25 minutes. they have a weight comparable to Anafi (250 vs 320) and the batteries are 2200 vs 2700mah 7.2v so they have about the same mAh / gram compared to Parrot Anafi and both use 2 cell lipo batteries.

I am not saying you are wrong, I respect your opinion even though I hate you for me spitting tea all over my 15 inch retina MacBook Pro when I was watching the end of this video

XD, but if you are correct in suggesting that the problem lies with having a 2 cell battery with that flight time, then the Mini and Mini 2 batteries should be developing errors within 20 flights as well, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Fmaxii]

If Mini and Mini 2 have a 7,2v battery, then it’s not Lipo but NiMh.
I don’t know about their availability to be used with a low voltage. Maybe they are more resistant than Lipo batteries?

Edit: Mini 2 has 2 Lipo, not NiMh, with a nominal voltage at 7.7v

 

[Dirk_ANAFI]

You are right, Dirk, BUT:

Still the FF6, and it sems, the Anafi ('s failsafes) , too, GETS SURPRISED by it.
If I look at my DJI batteries, or better on that what is shown as flighttime in the app and how/when the battery RTH or the critical battery landing is initialized, there IS a clear WARNING for the pilot to see!
Flighttime is decreasing and the Pilot can see that in the app.
In the Parrot "version" of an intelligent battery management, it (percentage of usable power) still stays where it was with a new battery.

Or saying it in easy words:

I know, that 100% on one of my 100+ cycles Spark batteries is just 10 minutes, now.
Because after 10 minutes, the shown battery level is in the 1 digits!
On Anafi, it still shows 20-30% after 15-18min flight, but already the bird has to go for a critical battery landing, not even offering the low battery RTH anymore. Even with the warning "... in 3 minutes" just seconds before!
And, unlucky enough, even the critical battery landing comes to late, sometimes!
(own experience!)
Which is NOT extendable on Anafi: In case the bird starts to critical land, you can't stop that from happening.

On DJI's, there is still battery life BEYOND 0% (several videos online, plus own testing experience), even on old batteries. Which seems to be a bit further away from the deadline of the powersources!

Just saying, this is a Parrot thing. If I were an american lawyer, flying an Anafi, losing it that way, getting a "sorry, no flightlog, no proof" reply, I would try to get as many Anafi pilots to join my case.

I'd say, the testing result in Solaris video, which is for sure repeatable, will be proof enough!
And he is offering a solution, aside that he is trying to sell something:
Make it a 12 minute flight time drone, solved!

Yes, you are true!
What we see now and what was highlighted by Solaris with this important thread is, that there are more and more "older" batteries in the Anafi world after up to 2 years and that they lead to problems.
The reason of this problems (crashes, not successful RTHs ...) is mostly and superficially the (older) battery itself.
So far, most members here would perhaps agree.

But with the question "what lies behind the problems?" we're drifting apart (2 points, there were some more...):
1. hardware design:
Question: Wouldn't a 3 cell battery design have been safer?
Answer: Of course. If the central processing circuit functions properly at 5V or 6V, then every Volt of a battery above this line reaches more safety by the drone being able to respond longer to an earlier voltage decrease (of an older battery).
But: A 3 cell battery would have been more weight and costs for the drone ...

2. firmware/software:
Question: Wouldn't it be better to have a "reserve tank" below 0%?
Answer: Of course. But the reserve is IN the 100%. Maybe 15% left is enough reserve for a new battery after the 2nd charging, and maybe 35% is enough reserve for an older battery.
But: If you design a drone, a longer flight time is a strong argument to sell this drone. So it is not helpful to say in the technical data: flight time is 22 minutes with a new and 12 minutes with an older battery ..., both plus a short reserve to come home.
Question: Wouldn't it be better, if the software/frmware would calculate the % values for the battery more reliable? Or should there be an additional display of the battery voltage?
Answer: Perhaps. But really, if you are focussed on your flight: When will you decide to land? At 25% 6284mV or at 22% 6105mV or at 19% 5874mV? Your drone might crash at each of these values.

So what stays?
Be very careful! Rechargeable batteries are wear parts.

 

[Liger 1956]

I feel that a lot of Anafi, and other drone, owners have come to the hobby without having flown other models, either fixed wing or multi rotor, and they are not aware of the need to keep lithium based batteries between certain voltages for a long life. I am regularly telling my flying club members that lithium batteries should not be kept fully charged just in case there is a flyable day here in the UK but that they should be kept at a storage voltage of about 3.7v for LiPo and charged the night before or the same morning as they are going to fly. I also see "puffed" batteries being used where the pilot flies the model until the power drops off and then lands with only about 3.2 to 3.0v/cell left. They then wonder why the battery does not have much power next time that it is used and why it is puffed.

I use my battery charger to measure my model plane LiPo batteries internal resistance regularly however this can change due to the battery temperature and state of charge so it is only a guide but will pick up a bad cell.

Unfortunately Parrot have not given us the ability either through the app or the battery connection pins to be able to measure each cells voltage or internal resistance. We were therefore left with only the unreliable FF6 % battery display to gauge the amount of power left in the battery during flight. The FF6 mods done by @AnafiPilot1 will help a great deal in managing the state of the battery especially with the warnings that he has incorporated.

I do agree that all rechargeable batteries should be considered replaceable parts but due to the cost, and lack of knowledge, this has not been the case for all users.

 

[Fmaxii]

There is an other parameter visible on FF6, at last in the last version 6.7.0, about the battery: the maximum battery capacity.
I don't know if it's new, but never saw that before.

Here is what I can see about my pretty faulty battery:
Maximum capacity: 56 %
I understand that this battery can't deliver more than half power than it was able when it was new. So, it could be half time, or even less, than it was able to do when it was new

 

[Jagerbomb52]

There is an other parameter visible on FF6, at last in the last version 6.7.0, about the battery: the maximum battery capacity.
I don't know if it's new, but never saw that before.

Here is what I can see about my pretty faulty battery:
Maximum capacity: 56 %
I understand that this battery can't deliver more than half power than it was able when it was new. So, it could be half time, or even less, than it was able to do when it was new

View attachment 5072

Yes thats always been there. Just that most people don't explore the App to see what is there.
You can also get the same information from reading the Meta data from the FDR log using ShowAnafiLog.

 

[Ana789]

There is an other parameter visible on FF6, at last in the last version 6.7.0, about the battery: the maximum battery capacity.
I don't know if it's new, but never saw that before.

Here is what I can see about my pretty faulty battery:
Maximum capacity: 56 %
I understand that this battery can't deliver more than half power than it was able when it was new. So, it could be half time, or even less, than it was able to do when it was new

View attachment 5072

Oh yes, that is there for as long as I have the bird.
Just it showed this year 90+ % on all of mine batteries.
And the funny part: These 90+ was one charge 96%, the other charge 93%, and so on.
Do one or two flights, and check the very same battery again!
Mine came down with 20% of a 90+% capacity.
Which should have been about 18% from new, right?
Thats how I did understand this feature.

It just points more and more in the direction, that neither this "max capacity" feature is showing the real capacity (did not, in my case at least), nor the % in FF6, and assumingly in the readings for the bird, are updated to the actual capacity of the battery

 

[Jagerbomb52]

I have a question for @solaris8x86
Since you have had these batteries taken apart and seem to know them pretty well I ask you about those third party chargers that came out a while back. The ones that charge 3 batteries at a time. Do you know if they actually balance charge the batteries or do they just charge both cells through the mains to the point of cut off even if one cell is lower then the other?